by Karen
Roderic
Hi Karen - When I purchased
my "bluepoint" female I noticed
that she was greatly lighter than the
rest of the litter which were "steely"
deep blue like the Russian Blue whereas
my kitty was more gray-blue. Now she
is two years old and I see a lot of
red through her coat and this has a
very purple sheen overall. Does this
mean she is lilac rather than blue?
I am a novice in the specifics of color
distinction and we have bred her to
our flame point male which resulted
in a very definite flame point female
and a questionable male who is either
blue or chocolate or possibly sealpoint??
He started out looking like he would
be blue, but has darkened to have much
brown around the face. His feet and
tail are quite dark like a solid seal.
What should I call him?? Don't want
to misrepresent...Thank you for your
input.
When you purchased your female, your
kitty's blue slip should have listed
the correct color based on the breeder's
breeding program. You may have also
received a pedigree with your girl.
If you did not, you could order one
from CFA. In order for a cat to be lilac,
the chocolate or dilute must be carried
on BOTH sides of the parents. This would
be a good time to study that pedigree
of your girl and look for lilacs and/or
chocolates from her sire and dam. If
it is not there, or only on one side,
your kitty can not be a lilac. When
you bred your "blue point to a
flame point and had a flame point baby,
your female had to be a blue cream point
which would explain her lighter coloring
to her siblings. The male kitten in
question should be a seal point based
on the assumption the flame point sire
was not a carrier for the chocolate
gene (one of his parents needed to be
a chocolate/lilac or carrier). You should
also look at his pedigree to determine
if there is any chocolate in his background.
If not, you will never get a chocolate
or lilac from that pair. If you discover
chocolate/lilac on both sides of your
girl, you may want to discuss with the
breeder the possibility of reevaluating
her color and changing it via directions
from the breeder of your female. If
you also find that your flame point
male carries the chocolate gene from
his parent(s), you may be able to produce
lilac cream points, chocolate tortie
points, chocolate and lilac points.
However, you should not register them
as such until you correct the color
on your female's papers. The pedigrees
of my first chocolate carrier foundation
were in German and had to be translated.
I certainly did not know what a chocolate
schildpatt or a schwarz-weiss was. Your
work should be easier, as CFA pedigrees
are in English.
If you breed a chocolate point male,
and a solid chocolate CPC Persian together,
what will you possibly get?
The answer depends on what is behind
that chocolate/chocolate point. If there
is dilute on both sides, you will have
about 25% lilac and lilac points to
75% chocolate and chocolate points.
If neither parent or only one parent
carries the dilute gene for lilac, you
will have 50% chocolate points to 50%
solid chocolates. I like those odds.
I have a kitten that is red mack
tabby and white, with chocolate patches
over her body. One patch is on her white
paw, and it looks to be chocolate colored.
This kitten has no chocolate in her
background! What color could she possibly
be? She is not a brown patched tabby.
You indicate that there is no chocolate
in your kitty's background, but do not
mention what colors are in her background.
Saying that your girl is a red mackerel
tabby and white infers that she is exactly
that, without any additional color.
With those brown patches, could she
possibly be a van brown patched tabby
and white? Are there tabby markings
or ticking on her brown patches? If
not, she may be a van calico. Look closely
at her parents and grandparents coloring.
Many times, cats are mis-registered
for color and then the offspring don't
seem to fit the expected color and then
are also registered incorrectly for
color. Red always shows a tabby pattern
to some degree, and may be hard to distinguish
between a red tabby and a solid red.
Ideally, a red would be free of the
tabby markings, but seldom is that the
case. A picture would be helpful. Oh
course, with no chocolate in you kitten's
background, you can not get a chocolate.
At one time, many breeders believed
brown tabbies would produce chocolates.
However, the brown tabby gene is an
agouti or "wild gene" coloring
with the fur being ticked or banded
with one of two tabby patterns; the
mackerel with the markings running vertical
to the back and the classic with it
famous bull's-eye appearance. Breeding
chocolate into tabby lines will produce
chocolate tabbies. But brown tabbies
(no chocolate in background) will not
produce solid chocolate or chocolate
tabby or anything chocolate. Let me
know more about the parents and grandparents
pedigree and what you come up with.
Hi Karen,
What color kittens would I get if I
bred my chocolate male to my brown patched
tabby female?
This is a difficult question without
knowing the genetic makeup of the parents
of the two cats you want to breed. Does
the chocolate carry the pointed gene
and/or the dilute for lilac? Does the
female carry any dilute, pointed or
chocolate? Assuming the parents are
homozygous for chocolate (no pointed
gene and no dilute lilac gene) and homozygous
for tabby with out any chocolate or
dilute in the background, your kittens
will be split 50% black/red/tortie to
50% brown tabby/red tabby/brown patched
tabby. Of the females, you should expect
50% expressing the red with either the
black or the tabby pattern. Of the males,
50% will be black or brown tabby and
50% will be red or red tabby. If you
have dilute on both sides of the parents
you will also see creams, blues, blue
creams, blue patched tabbies, blue tabbies
at 25% to the dominant colors. If there
is chocolate on the girl's side, then
you may also see in your litters, chocolates,
chocolate torties, chocolate tabbies,
etc. If you have dilute and chocolate
on both sides, lilacs and lilac creams
and lilac tabbies etc. as well. Now
if your kitties carry the pointed gene
on both sides, added colors would be
lynx points and pointed. If you have
dilute, chocolate and pointed, you will
have a candy shop of pointeds, tabbies,
torties, and solids in a variety of
color combinations. Wouldn't a lilac
lynx point look nice. You will not get
any chocolates from this mating unless
the female carries the chocolate gene.
But her kittens will. Have fun.
Will a lilac CPC mated with another
lilac CPC give you chocolate Persians
as well as lilacs?
You will not be able to produce any
chocolate or chocolate point Persians
from two dilutes breed together. You
will however produce about 25% lilac
pointed babies from these parents. Unfortunately,
once the dominant gene, in this case
chocolate, is removed from the cat's
genetic makeup, it is gone forever until
reintroduced into your lines from a
chocolate, black (chocolate carrier),
chocolate point or seal point (chocolate
carrier). Many breeders prefer only
the dilute colors and thus do not incorporate
the dominate black, chocolate or even
red into their programs. I like the
variety, and prefer the chocolate color
over the lilac, so I work with dominates
carrying dilutes. With my dilutes, I
breed them back to dominate colors since
I don't want to loose that dominate
gene. This way the chocolate gene is
not lost. You will eventually need to
outcross, so go for a black (chocolate
carrier), chocolate, seal point (chocolate
carrier) or chocolate point to bring
the dominant back into your program.
A red (chocolate carrier) male will
also work well if there is not too much
red in your program and you like lilac
creams and chocolate torties. Best of
luck in upcoming litters.
Hello- although I am more familiar
with chocolate and lilac Himalayan colors
, but I would like to go in a different
direction. I have seen on CFA's web
site where there are such colors as
shell chocolate calico and possible
van shell lilac calico Persians. How
would I go about producing these rare
shades?
I remember attending my first show in
1992 and seeing a bicolor with the shaded
silver coloring and wondering if it
was showable as well as what it took
to get that color. It was a remarkable
color and quite beautiful. I can see
your interest in producing kitties in
the shaded color class expressed in
the bicolor and calico pattern. The
best way to produce these colors would
be to purchase kitties already exhibiting
those patterns and colors you desire.
If these are hard to locate or difficult
to talk the breeder into letting the
kitty move into your home, you have
a few color options that will work well
with patience. A van chocolate bicolor
cat may be breed to a shell cameo carrying
the chocolate gene or to a chinchilla
silver (hopefully also a chocolate carrier),
in which case all kittens will be bicolor
and carry the chocolate gene. You will
get a variety of shading with about
half the kittens exhibiting the shading
effect. You will want to keep these
shaded bicolors and breed them to a
chocolate bicolor (or carrier for chocolate),
preferably a van. To keep the red coloring
for you calicos, use shell calico or
shell cameo females (chocolate or carriers)
with black (carrying chocolate) van
bicolor or chocolate van bicolor male
or the reverse. Of course, using shell
to shell would work better if available.
I would discourage you from using any
pointed lines in this program unless
necessary to lock in that chocolate
gene. Go lightly, as you will get pointed
shell bicolors and calicos which currently
are not show able in CFA shows. There
are many very nice chocolate vans available,
please visit the breeders
directory where you will find a
list of catteries. Be patient. It will
take a sizable financial investment
in your program and at least two generations
if not more to produce what you want
with the quality you would expect. It
will be worth the wait.
Karen my question is what are the
chances of me getting Himalayan kittens
out of mating 2 CPC Persians? See I
have a male CPC chocolate and will be
getting a CPC lilac female.
Breeding two CPC Persians will produce
pointed babies (himies) at a rate of
1:4 or 25% pointed to 75% solid. Of
those solid cuties, 50% will also be
CPC 25% of the litter will be homozygous
and will not carry the pointed gene
at all. All of those babies will be
visual chocolate or lilacs depending
on if your chocolate is a carrier for
the dilute lilac gene. Enjoy all your
lovely babies in your upcoming litters.
Hello, I have 3 questions for you,
the 1st is I have a black CPC female
Persian that carriers chocolate I want
to breed her to my seal male which does
not carrier the chocolate gene, what
will be the colors of my kittens? 2nd,
is there a such thing as a dark chocolate
point Himalayan I seen a breeders ad
stating they had a dark chocolate point
Himalayan, 3rd is there a such thing
as a dark chocolate Himalayan or is
it just a seal?
Part 1
Breeding a CPC black female to a seal
point male, provided neither carry the
dilute gene for blue or lilac, will
produce 50% seal points to 50% solid
black. The solid black will all be heterozygous
(carry) for the pointed gene. They will
be CPC like their mother. If there is
any dilute, either lilac or blue on
both parents pedigree, you may also
have some blue points and blues in that
litter. Also important to note, since
your girl carries the chocolate, 50%
of the kittens will also be chocolate
carriers. That would be 25% of the pointed
babies and 25% of the solid babies will
carry the color gene for chocolate.
You will only be sure of which ones,
if they ever produce a chocolate/lilac
offspring with a chocolate/lilac or
carrier as a mate. Have fun with the
possibilities.
Part 2 and Part 3 together
That is a hard one, since I produce
mostly non pointed chocolate Persians
and color variations of such. In the
non pointed chocolates, mine have always
been the same shade of chocolate, no
darks or lights. To be fair to the Himi
experts with many kitties to view and
breed to produce more chocolates, I
would concede that it is possible. I
will look at photo after photo and automatically
say that's a chocolate point, that's
a blue point, yes that looks like a
seal and then yes that is definitely
a lilac. Looking at the those dark chocolate
points, they do appear to be seal. Many
seal points have dark body coats and
some have light (almost white) body
coats. All chocolate points I have seen,
have light coats with little or no blending
of the dark into the lighter body color.
Paw pad color is not always as accurate
or easy to describe without many examples
for comparison. You have several options.
One, you could go for a solid chocolate
CPC; two, go for the light milk chocolate;
three; look at the pedigree closely
of the kitty in question, view photos
of the parents as well as photos of
the kitty with its littermate. This
could be helpful if there is a mixed
litter of seals and chocolates together.
I have heard advertisements of breeders
selling solid chocolates, only to find
they were black. There wasn't even a
chocolate on either parents side. What
were they thinking?
I was told not to mate my solid blue
to my lilac point Persian, as blue distorts
the color, is this true?
There should be minimal problems working
with the lilac and blue colors together
in your breeding program. Many champions
and grands have come from such breeding
combinations. Eye color has been a challenge
for many years with the himi colors,
often seen in breedings with the solid
Persian lines, especially with the copper
eyes. Producing solid blues and lilacs
in your program should have little or
no detrimental affect on the copper
eye color required for blues and lilacs.
Blue and lilac, expressed either as
pointed or solid, are recessive genes.
The lilac is recessive to blue and will
only be expressed when doubled (homozygous),
or in other words, two lilac genes together.
Breeding your lilac pt to a solid blue
will produce all solid blue kittens
unless the blue is heterozygous or carrier
for the lilac, and or pointed gene,
in which case, theoretically, you will
have 25% lilac to your 75% blue, or
25% of blue points to 75% blue solids.
If your solid blue carries both the
lilac and the point genes, 25% of your
kittens will be lilac points, 25% blue
points, 25% solid lilacs and 25% solid
blue. You can see how fun this can be.
I continuously work non-chocolate/lilac
Persians into my program to improve
type, increase size and vigor and add
to the gene pool. With every chocolate/lilac
I keep, it is bred to a non-chocolate/lilac.
Good luck and have fun with your babies.
Is chocolate a dilution of seal and
lilac a dilution of blue? But is not
blue a dilution of seal (black)?
Yes and no. Black is dominant and blue
is recessive. Chocolate is dominant
and lilac is recessive. Black and blue
are both dominant to chocolate and lilac.
There must be two chocolate genes present
before they can be expressed. If there
is one black and one chocolate gene
in the cats genetic makeup, you will
see black, thus black being dominant
over chocolate. With the existence of
two chocolate genes, one from each parent,
the black gene is gone forever until
you introduce a non chocolate or carrier
into your program. Then the black dominates
again. The lilac works the same way
when it is doubled up, with the black
and blue gene removed from the genetic
makeup. It is considered pure (homozygous)
and will breed true for lilac when bred
to another lilac. A lilac bred to a
chocolate will give you chocolate or
chocolate/lilac kittens if the chocolate
is a carrier. Thus chocolate is dominant
to the lilac. A chocolate (homozygous)
kitty breed to a blue kitty will produce
black babies based on our knowledge
that blue is dominant to chocolate and
black is dominant to blue. Seal point
is the black with its color expression
limited to the point areas of the cat.
Seal point is dominant to Blue point.
Seal and Blue point are dominant to
Chocolate and Lilac point. Chocolate
point is dominant to Lilac point.
I want to know about the red/cream
males that breed as chocolates. Such
as a red male produced from a chocolate
tortie and a chocolate male.
Remember that the red (dilute cream)
color gene is sex linked or carried
on the female X chromosome. Females
have two X chromosomes, XX and the boys
have only one X in conjunction to their
unique Y chromosome, XY. Because the
red is carried on a different chromosome
than your basic black (dilute blue),
the red color expresses itself independently
of the black, causing what is termed
incomplete dominance in the presence
of the other X. When there is a red
gene on one of X chromosomes of a female,
say from a black to red breeding, you
will of course get tortie girls. A female
with two red genes, one on each of her
X chromosomes, the red color overrides
(complete dominance) the black, thus
completely masking the black and producing
the red (dilute cream) color. Now for
the guys. Since the male has only one
X chromosome, if the red gene is on
that X, the boy will be red. Here again
the red color dominates and interferes
with the complete expression of black
with the absence of another X chromosome
to challenge the expression of that
red.
Now we will switch to chocolate (dilute
lilac) and chocolate torties (dilute
lilac cream) for our breeding. A chocolate
tortie has that red gene on one of her
X chromosomes and a normal X without
the red gene. She is breed to a chocolate
(dilute lilac or even lilac carrier).
The boys are all going to get their
X from their mom. They are only allowed
one. Half the boys will get that X with
the red gene, the other half will receive
the normal X, no red. The guys with
that red gene X are all going to be
red, even though Daddy was chocolate,
his donated Y was overrode by that lonesome
red gene. However, that kitty still
has that chocolate gene given to him
by both parents on two non sex linked
chromosomes hidden by the expression
of the red (dilute cream) color. Now
this boy grows up and is breed to a
chocolate (dilute lilac), and wow- the
gene for chocolate comes out. His daughters
are chocolate torties (dilute lilac
creams) and his sons are all chocolates
(dilute lilac) How did this happen?
He passed on his red gene X to his daughters
along with mom's normal non red gene
X-thus the tortie. His sons could only
receive a Y gene from him, so no red
gene is passed along from him. In this
case with mom being chocolate, she can
not pass a red gene either. The little
guys are free to completely express
their chocolate coloring. This red (true
chocolate) dad could also be breed to
a chocolate tortie (dilute lilac cream),
but now half the boys will be red (100%
chocolate genetically) and half the
girls will be chocolate torties, with
the other half red (again 100% chocolate
genetically). Using a red male from
the original breeding as you inquired
about would work well into a chocolate
breeding program. Limit you females
to black or blue (chocolate or lilac
carriers) or to chocolate and lilac
to produce all visuals.
I have a chocolate point male who
has lilac in his background on both
sides. The lilac goes back to the great
grandparents. I am trying to get lilacs
back from him and have been unable to
do this. I have his daughter, also.
She is seal point (dam was seal point).
I also have a blue-cream point female
I have been breeding him to. How can
I get the lilac recessive gene to come
out?
It is unlikely that the chocolate point
male you have is carrying the recessive
lilac gene at this point since you have
had no dilutes in your breeding(s).
Without seeing the pedigree of your
chocolate point, I will assume that
the closest generation expressing the
dilute gene would be the great grandparents.
Although it is possible for a recessive
trait to pass unknown for several generations
before expressing itself when breed
to another dilute or carrier, your odds
of the dilute lilac gene passing from
the great grandparents run around 12%
chance. If there were any dilutes (blue
or blue point) in closer generations,
such as your male's parents, would increase
your probability of having a lilac carrier.
Since your male is a chocolate, it is
a given that IF he carries the dilute
gene, it will be lilac. It may be helpful
to breed to a blue point. If he carries
the lilac dilute gene, you would see
blue points in half the offspring or
at a rate of 50%. After two breedings
and you still do not get dilutes (blue
point or lilac), then you can be pretty
sure your boy does not carry that gene.
However, at least all offspring will
be dilute carriers as well as chocolate
carriers. Put these kitties into your
breeding program with other lilac or
lilac carriers. Make sure you are using
carriers. To be 100% sure you have a
dilute carrier (lilac in this case),
one parent must be lilac or lilac cream.
How would you describe a solid chocolate
in words?
I would use one word to describe a solid
chocolate -"brown". It is
the same color seen in the chocolate
labs. It reminds me of the rich color
of dark oak furniture or acorns. There
may be some variations between breeding
lines. Every chocolate I have ever had
within my breeding program has always
been the same shade of chocolate - no
light chocolates or dark chocolates.
Just chocolate. A lighter tone or red
tint to the ruff part of the coat may
occur in the solid chocolate due to
an immature coat or oxidation to the
coat respectively. This is also seen
in solid blacks. The type of lighting
will affect the visual appearance of
coat color with full sunlight the best
light for viewing.
Other factors attributing to intensity
of color include coat length, texture
and volume of the lighter undercoat
seen in the long hair breeds. These
factors will give a lighter overall
appearance to the chocolate. The ears
will exhibit the best true color of
the cat, since the hair is uniform in
length with no undercoat. Once you see
a chocolate, it is a color you never
forget.
Hi, I have a question about my lilac
Persian. When I got him as a kitten
his hair was much lighter in color but
now at 7 months of age it has darkened
somewhat although it is not as dark
as my blue Persians. It is not as pale
as some lilac photos I have seen. His
nose padding is a pale gray (but not
pinkish gray that the standard calls
for) but again not as dark as my Blue
Persian's nose padding that is dark
gray. How can I be certain he is a lilac?
His sire is a lilac and the mother is
a tortoiseshell that does carry chocolate.
Thanks for your help.
Your male certainly could be a lilac.
The best time to determine the color
coat of a lilac Persian is when the
kitten's coat is shortest, before the
eyes open. The lilac will have a pinkish
overcast or tone in appearance compared
to a blue. This was noted by the breeder
of your male and the basis of color
identification on the blue slip. As
the kitten matures and the hair grows,
it may develop a lighter coloring called
a kitten coat or sometimes referred
to as a fever coat. I recall in my early
years of breeding, trying to register
a tortoiseshell as a tortie smoke. I
even forwarded a photo of her with an
incredible amount of "white"
fur intermingled with her tortie coloring
to CFA. I learned a lot from the knowledgeable
staff at CFA. And of course, she completely
shed out this white fluff within her
first year.
Your male may have had a lot of kitten
coat keeping the color lighter in appearance.
Now as his coat matures, he has lost
some of that lighter, finer fur. This
usually occurs around 6-8 months of
age. Color photos are difficult for
comparison purposes as tints and tones
vary from one site or another and many
photos are taken when the cats are exhibiting
their lighter coat. I have seen photos
of lilacs that appear to be creams more
so than lilacs. To be certain he is
registered the correct color, you may
do a test breeding to a chocolate, chocolate
tortie or lilac female. If your litter
is full of chocolates/lilacs and variations
of such, your male is a true lilac.
If you have a combination of black,
blue, chocolate and lilac kittens, your
male is a blue Persian carrying the
lilac gene. Good luck.